Ireland, a warning for Belgium

Published: February 16, 2009 - 08:25
This article received :  16 Comments

The Sunday Times writes thatIreland could default on its debt. Once called the Celtic Tiger, Ireland now faces mounting problems, on the back of banking problems.

The cost of buying insurance against Irish government bonds rose to 350bp. It has almost tripled in a week. Simon Johnson, the former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund, called for this weekend’s meeting of G7 finance ministers to put Ireland’s troubles at the top of the agenda.

Pledges made by Ireland to support its banking sector amount to 220% of the country’s annual economic output. The total loans held in Irish banks are more than 11 times the size of the economy.

Following the scandal at Anglo Irish Bank over undisclosed loans, the market fears there are more hidden problems that could ultimately fall to the state to resolve.

With Ireland set to borrow an additional €15 billion (£13.4 billion) this year, the national debt pile will hit €70 billion.

The cost of insuring Irish debt hit 350 basis points on Friday, meaning that for every £100 of debt it would cost £3.50 to insure against default. A year ago it would have cost 10p to insure every £100 of Irish debt.

One possible solution would seeGermany buy billions of euros of Irish government debt through a fund set up by the European Central Bank, thus circumventing no bail out clause among EMU members that prohibits direct government credit provision by ECB or national central banks. EU institutions and governmens can provide assistance if they can convince their citizens.

There are other ways to escape from default: 1)ask IMF help;2)ask banks to buy your government debt;3)sell external assets.

But none of these options seem realistic in the Irish case. For option 1 : it could help, but the IMF's bailout fund has only $200bn left.

The coclusion is that government are reaching their limits in what they can suppport in terms of bailouts. The situation can run quickly out of control, as once healthy Ireland is demonstrating.

16 Comments

  1. Jim O'Neil 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    Hello Geert
    Nice post in English.
    It's about Ireland and Belgium, but soon you'll be writing about other stuff I guess.
  2. Luk 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    Although my English is far from perfect, I support this transition to English.

    Regarding your post. It's important to follow the long-term yields on the secondary market of foreign national capital markets.

    http://www.nbb.be/belgostat/PublicatieSelectieLinker?LinkID=420000034|910000082&Lang=E

    Note the widening gap with Germany.
  3. frederic 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    Belgium has the same problem, oversized banks compared to the country's annual economic output. We had the chance of already selling one bank (fortis) but failed.
    Another bank (Dexia) will certainly need extra help in the future.

    There is one advantage for Belgium compared to Ireland, Ireland actually has double trouble.
    They had a local bubbel on the housemarket witch caused not only the banks to have massive debts, but also the citizens have massive debt. In Belgium the personal debt of the citizens isn't massive at all.
  4. Luk 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    (Nevertheless, according to a research team of ING, Belgium's real estate market is overvalued as well. A must read: http://www.ing.be/xpedio/groups/ingbe/@public/@bbl/@publications/documents/other/365696_nl.pdf)
  5. frederic 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    @Luc,

    Indeed, but there are some big diffirences.

    - Belgium forecast -15%
    - Ireland forecast 60-80%

    - Average Belgium houseprice - 175.000 euro in 2006
    - Average Ireland housprice - 310.000 euro in 2006
    http://www.finfacts.ie/biz10/irelandhouseprices.htm

    - Belgium Mortgage debt-to-GDP ratio: 34.2 percent
    - UK (didn't find Ireland data, but simular) Mortgage debt-to-GDP ratio: 82.8 percent .
    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3976

  6. Frank 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    The most important quote from this post that nobody mentioned:

    "but the IMF’s bailout fund has only $200bn left"

    What happens if the one that bails out needs to be bailed out?
  7. Geert 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    @Frank
    They will get more money.

    The IMF is basically the best organisation to coordinate the debt relief efforts.

    The problem is that this was generally recognized when the troubled countries were emerging countries.
    Now that the developed countries are in deep trouble, they are often too arrogant to accept the IMF's proposals.
  8. patrick 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    @ Frederic

    I have heard and read several times that "Belgian" banks are oversized compared to our GDP or even that we have too many banks compared to the size of our country ... I even believe that there are (econometric) studies proving this point (although I can not immediately find such a study).

    I am ready to accept the scientific contents of such studies, but still I have some remarks ...

    (1) According to the economic theory of comparative advantages, it is normal that some countries are specialized in for instance financial services while other countries are more specialized in for instance car manufacturing ... And as international trade barriers further disappear, every region or country specializes even more ...

    (2) Given the size of our country, it may well be that there is only room for one or two "Belgian" banks ... Is this what we (as consumers) really want ? Are we ready to accept the price setting and the product range of a monopolist or two duopolists ?

    (3) Just suppose the optimal economic size of a bank exceeds the Belgian "capacity"; such a bank would probably be obliged to expand abroad ... Would it still be considered as a Belgian bank even if it is working in Eastern Europe ... and even if it has imported its problems form abroad ...

    To make my point clear : hasn't this problem a European nature, isn't it (at least partially) caused by importing great risks from the US (they even called it risk transfer) and shouldn't therefore the solution come from a European institute or even a global agency rather than from a "national" bank ...

    These are some critical remarks from a non-banker ...
  9. Frank 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    @ Geert

    What happens if the countries that bail out (pay money to) the IMF need to be bailed out? What happens if the country that needs to be bailed out is too big to save? What happens if the country that needs to be bailed out is the size of the USA? What happens to the value of money when money needs to be printed to bail out. What happens if all of our leaders do not see where this crisis is headed? What happens if everyone trusts a financial system based on debt when the debt can not be repaid? What is about to happen?

  10. frederic 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    @Patrick,

    Correct, our banks are oversized due to foreign mortgage debt. They wanted fast money. This is why our banks are too big to handle for Belgium.
    But in a country like Ireland they have the same problem (infected by US subprime) and a problem on there own market.

    Belgium banks are infected, but the local market isn't problematic, I have posted some info over BNP of Belgium vs mortgage debt and some other countries, but the Blog has the "Uw reactie wacht op goedkeuring" message (Geert ?) .

    I am not saying Belgium hasn't got a problem, but the problem at this moment is not as big as the Ireland/UK problem, they have double trouble. I think Geert's point is that we need to be careful with our banks at this moment. He didn't really say Fortis but I think he is still somewhat frustrated by the latest Fortis history, the stockholders have placed a bet in a violent enviroment wich can cost the Belgium state tons of money.

  11. Geert 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    @Frank

    I share your worries.

    We will get higher public debt to GDP ratios, and eventually inflation (4-5% for 4-5 years).
    It will start in Anglosaxon countries, but others will follow.
  12. Frank 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    It's not the inflation I'm worried about. It's the deflationary collapse and the ensuing diminishing of trust in the money system and currency system I'm worried about ... Higher debt to GDP ratio's when the ratio is already well above 300% (in the case of the USA) are simply imposible without a collapse. Deflation is upon us and central banks are no longer in control. Job losses, defaults, bailouts, ... there are a million signs poiting to deflation. The credit experiment that lasted 3 decades is imploding before our eyes and nobody or nothing is able to stop it. A lot of people are in for a rude awakening ...
  13. frederic 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    @Frank or Geert,

    What's it going to be, inflation or deflation. In some topics "inflation" is the name, in other topics "deflation" is upon us.

    The $ (and many other) will collapse for some, but how can the value drop with deflation ? All money is worthless and if it isn't it will become worthless(inflation) but it will also gain value due to inflation ?

    Another point, if we are going to get deflation (a correction) of the money value, doesn't this mean the fiat system actualy works ? In a wierd way it is correcting itself after it got abused, even while every gouverment is trying to avoid and correct this, the system seems to be out of control and started to take it's own life towards correction.

    Personaly I think it still can be stopped, when the G8 (or more) can get to some agreement, give the IMF the needed battlepower so we do get the inflation instead of the deflation, I think we will be better of. Offcourse 5% inflation for 5 years isn't realy healthy, but still better then major deflation for the upcomming years.

    Another thing I don't seem to understand, when creating a bad bank in the US (still on plan I thought). The gouvernment is the owner of the toxic credits. Why can't they review those credits then. instead of getting 8-15% interest on the existing mortgage debts. Turn them back to 4-6% (for example) to prevent the third wave, it will also stop the falling houseprices, will bring some hope, hope will bring many other things (people with good hope are more motivated). They should take this to the G8 and try to convince the other country's to do the same. Try to let the original borrowers to pay for there debt but wothout the big profits.
    Offcourse this would mean that the current mortgage debt would be less worth in what the mortgage debt would have returned in $$ . But if it can break the downward spiral of houseprices, less failing debts, it would also be less stressfull for the uber oversized CDS market wich has to be restricted and downsized in the future.

    just a thought, but still, inflation or deflation ? some say A , other say B, some even say both ?
  14. kettos 

    On 16 Feb, 2009

    In my view, at this moment there's a major deflation of assets prices because of the financial deleveraging. Because there's still a long way to go in this process (estimates go to another 2 trillion of losses worldwide for banks, cf. N. Roubini) deflation will stay here for a while. Governments of course are going to try to solve the problem by injecting money into the system. But they will need to put so much money in that their debt levels will be huge. And there's a very thin line to thread. Too much money pumping and rising debt may cause a loss of confidence in the fiat money system. Then we're not talking about deflation or inflation but hyperinflation. Too little money pumping and we may get trapped in the deflationary spiral of falling prices, investment, consumption, wages, rising unemployment, ...
    Not a bright picture, i know...i'd love to hear other views...
  15. frederic 

    On 18 Feb, 2009

    Obama reads econoshock ;-) .

    Plan for lowering costs of excisting mortgage debts...
  16. paroie de douche 

    On 26 Jun, 2012

    You actually make it seem so easy along with your presentation but I find this topic to be really one
    thing that I feel I would by no means understand.
    It kind of feels too complicated and extremely wide for me.
    I'm having a look forward in your subsequent post, I’ll try to get the hold of it!

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